It Was the Rate, Not the Width
Ongoing research. This is an experimental result from active work, not a settled conclusion. The numbers are what we measured and the method is described so you can judge it, but the programme is still running and later experiments may revise what it means.
A note on the language in these records. This is a working laboratory notebook for research into training AI models more cheaply and efficiently, so you will read that an approach did not work, that a result did not hold up, or that one method was worse than another. That is the research doing its job, not a verdict on the engineering we deliver to clients. Ruling an approach out is how the search narrows, and these are the pages that teach us the most: nearly every technique we now rely on came from understanding why something else fell short. Testing our own ideas at least as hard as anyone else's is the point of publishing them. More about this programme and why we run it.
Part of a bigger question: What actually happens at the moment a model learns? – It builds machinery rather than selecting it, working through the task in a reproducible order and trying a simpler wrong rule on the way. The visible training curve cannot tell you which is happening.
In plain English
What we asked. Last time, our widest model paid a smaller price for being taught an unneeded skill, but it was also trained more slowly, so we could not tell which one mattered. This time we changed only the learning speed, on a model half as wide.
What we found. The slower speed alone produced the same smaller price. Making the model wider, at the same speed, changed nothing. So how much an unneeded skill slows the others depends on how hard training pushes, not on how big the model is.
Why it matters. In practice: if something unneeded in the training mix is slowing a model down, training on it less often or more gently helps; a bigger model does not, at least at these sizes.
The rest of this page is the technical record: the design, every number, and the limits. It is written for a reviewer, and you do not need it to have understood the result above.
New here? How to read a research record
- Start at the verdict. Every record states, before the experiment was run, what result would have made us abandon the idea. That is the "kill test". Then it says whether the test fired. Nothing gets reinterpreted after the fact.
- Numbers in square brackets are uncertainty.
23.4 [18.1, 28.7]means our best estimate is 23.4 and the true value is probably somewhere in that range. If a range includes zero, we cannot claim an effect. - Results that rule an idea out are kept. Roughly half of what is published here says an approach did not work, including plenty of our own. Those pages are the output, not a shortfall: knowing which direction is a dead end is what lets the next experiment go somewhere better, and most of what we now rely on came out of understanding why something else fell short. Work that only publishes what worked is not measuring anything.
- Read the Limits section. Every record ends with what it does not show. It is the most honest part of any experiment and usually the shortest.
- Pro tip: the figures near the top are designed to carry the result on their own. If you read nothing else, read the caption under each one, which says what it shows and what to take from it.
EXPLORATORY. Not a preregistered study. Local CPU, 12 training runs of3000steps. The design and kill test were committed (ab40ea6) before any run.
Program v2 Bucket T, item T7. Decisive computation: . Output: analysis/competition_rate_untied.py. Reproduce with analysis/competition_rate_untied.jsonpython analysis/competition_rate_untied.py (about an hour on a throttled laptop CPU); --reuse re-derives every endpoint from the saved series, and was checked to print the identical summary.
The question
T6 found that at width 512 and its tuned rate 0.002, an unneeded skill (G) costs composite C 25% of its learning time, against about 35% at widths 64-256 -- but those narrower widths ran at the house rate 0.005, so width and rate changed together. T7 changes only the rate: T4's width-256 comparison (O17's task and seeds, every skill taught against G never taught) at 0.002.
Kill test, fixed before execution: C's share at width 256 and rate 0.002 lies within width 512's interval, [-0.270, -0.234] -- the lower rate alone explains T6's easing.
Result: the kill test fires
| Width | Rate | C share | F share | E share |
|---|---|---|---|---|
256 | 0.005 (T4) | -0.359 [-0.439, -0.279] | -0.352 | -0.271 |
256 | 0.002 | -0.268 [-0.288, -0.248] | -0.220 | -0.221 |
512 | 0.002 (T6) | -0.252 [-0.270, -0.234] | -0.207 | -0.170 |
At the same width, lowering the rate from 0.005 to 0.002 moves C's share from 36% to 27%, into width 512's interval. At the same rate, doubling the width from 256 to 512 moves it from 27% to 25%, within noise. T6's easing was the rate.
What the thread now says
Across O20-O24 and T1-T7, one account fits every measurement:
- The cost an unneeded skill imposes does not fall with width anywhere from
64to512(O21, T4, T7). - It scales with how hard training pulls: halving how often the skill is taught roughly halves its cost for
C(O24), and lowering the learning rate lowers it (T7).
That is what arXiv 2608.03573 calls norm-limited interference, and it is not the size-dependent interference arXiv 2605.29548 proposes -- at this scale, on this task. The second paper's range (4M-4B parameters) is far beyond width 512, so this bounds rather than refutes it.
What stands
- Kill test fires. At width
256, rate0.002givesCa share of-0.268[-0.288, -0.248], inside width512's interval; the width effect T6 appeared to show is the rate. - Competition between skills here is set by the training pull (dose and rate), not by width.
- Practical reading: if an unneeded objective is slowing a small model, a lower rate or a lower sampling share reduces its cost; a wider model does not.
Limits
- One task family, widths
64-512, two rates. - A lower rate also slows learning overall; the share is relative to each run's own control, which removes that, but the absolute times differ.
Terms on this page
Every piece of vocabulary this record uses, in plain language. Generated from the text above, so it cannot drift out of step with it.
- kill test
- A condition written down before running the experiment that says what result would make us abandon the idea. Fixing it in advance is what stops a disappointing result being reinterpreted as an encouraging one.
- learning rate
- How big a step training takes each time it updates the model. Too small and nothing happens; too big and it never settles.
- parameters
- The adjustable numbers inside a model. Training is the process of setting them. Model size is usually quoted as a count of these.
- seed
- The number that fixes all the randomness in a training run. Same seed, same run. Running several seeds is how you tell a real effect from a lucky one.
- width
- How many internal numbers a model uses at each layer. The usual way we vary model size in these experiments.
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